A revision of this undated page, called Interview with God III, channeled on 1999/11/01
appears as Healing Class III Reclaiming Lost Spirit - 3.7 Grandfather's Role in the Healing
Since this channeling is especially important for me and the "mistakes" in this earlier page , to which I refer in pp42 and pp28, provide awareness and learning,
I've used this earlier page for quoting, after I put in brackets here all the changes appearing there. ~~~~~ See also the French bi-lingual edition of this page, since June 14, 2007
Interview with God I ~~~ Interview with God II~~~ Interview with God IV ~~~ Interview with God V

Interview with God III


There is a small path through the fresh green grass and the olive-trees: who is walking on it?

God, in part two of this interview you said
you would next discuss the relationship between Grandfather and the Mother.
What can you tell us about this now?

"As I have pointed out,
the Mother's Will essence is different than the Spirit essence
of [Original Spirit whom I call] Grandfather, the Father, and me.

"There are many, many separate and individual beings in Creation,
each identified by their Spirit essence.
And while there are a multitude of spirits,
there is only one Mother.

"[The Original Mother or] Grandmother and the Mother
are the same being, but at different levels of existence.
All Will essence is magnetic,
and is naturally drawn back to itself.
Spirit has caused splits or gaps in the Mother,
but being fragmented is not her natural condition.
Oneness and wholeness are the Mother's chief attributes,
and of course now her core desire [is to regain her wholeness].

"Although she has many parts
that are still split off from her core parental essence,
she has been more and more quickly moving back into wholeness.
These splits have all been caused by Spirit going into her
without her Desire drawing him, against her Will.
This is because Spirit that I had denied, mainly Lucifer,
had been trying to make the Will align with him and his plans
[for a separate Creation, opposite mine. ]

"Grandfather has been showing me
how to take responsibility for my denials,
and how to withdraw my denied bad light from the Mother.
He knows much more about her,
and Spirit's role in her suffering
than I could ever have guessed on my own.
This is because he has been in my place himself,
and because he's had the advantage
of what has been learned
in trying to correct his original imbalances
through evolution here
and in the other 'local' Creations prior to this one.

again - the olive trees and the Sabre-cactuses between old walls point out, where once people lived their simple lives...

"As I've said,
the first or Central Universe
created by Grandfather and the Original Mother
provided the starting point
for former evolutionary will beings like myself
to become creators of their own universes.
There are seven 'local' universes all together.
This Creation is the most recent
and is at the densest level of manifestation.
And it is here that Grandfather has found the rest of the Original Mother.

"The most important level of Grandfather's intention
in fostering the evolution of will beings
was to find and reunite with the lost parts of the Mother
that had been fragmented and traumatized
in the initial explosion of Creation.
And now he has found them,
here on Earth
and within Earth's own evolutionary will creatures,
in other words within you.

Thank you.
God, how did it happen
that you abandoned your own plan and adopted Grandfather's?

"When I first woke up to what a mess I'd made here,
I didn't realize that my narcissism, arrogance and ineptitude
in relating with the Mother
had been factored into Grandfather's plan.
He had expected as much of an evolving Creation,
based on his own experience with the Mother,
and the experiences of the prior Creations.

pp42
"It was during your last planetary war,
in a camp where the prisoners all were to be killed,
and many were being tortured as well,
that I heard Grandfather's voice very clearly say to me,
'No, my son, this is not right. There is another way.'

"I had my attention focused in a medical area of the camp,
observing for the billionth time a phenomenon
I had come to know as the 'working out of karma'.
Physicians were conducting 'medical experiments'
that were actually tortures.
I had been in places like this so many times before,
[and now I was] watching yet another perpetrator and victim
play out the original imprints of Creation.
And as always,
I was waiting for the realization to strike one of them
that they each were both a perpetrator and a victim.

"A soon-to-be new mother was in labor,
and the experiment was to find out
what would happen
if the child could not be born.
As the experimenters tied the Mother's legs together
and strapped her to the table,
they asked themselves,
'Will only the child die?
Or will the mother die too?
If so, who will die first?
And what will be the actual medical causes of their deaths?'

"As I felt into the experimenter's will,
I found a deep urge to destroy, to kill.
[and I recognized Lucifer and his asuras.]

[As I felt into the other experimenter,
there was almost no will.
He was being very much like I had often been
- a scientific, dispassionate observer.]

As I felt into the mother's will,
I found under the intense horror and heartbreak
an even deeper resignation full of despair and hopelessness.

It was then I raised my head up
and asked a [frustrated rhetorical] question of the cosmos,
'This can't be right! Why is it still happening?'

"My question was answered by Grandfather
in the way I just described.

"Grandfather's softly spoken words in that moment
opened me in a place that I hadn't realized was dead.
In that instant I knew the fundamental error
I had made very early on.
And also in that opening
Grandfather showed me the seriousness
of how closed I had become to the Mother,
and how the suffering she has endured
was her her own fault,
[update , found in 2005: "was never her own fault, as I had believed]
[correction in the version .grandfather: "was not her own fault",]
but was caused by my denials.
Eons of brokenheartedness on both sides ~
and mostly held in denial,
suddenly came to me in full force.
I was transformed
as I felt for the first time
the full extent of the Mother's plight.

"It was a very sudden and very radical shift of focus and intention.
You know, evolution doesn't happen gradually.
It happens in leaps.
In one moment everything is pretty much as it's been.
And in the next instant, it's suddenly different.
In the evolution of life forms on Earth, for instance,
it was in one specific moment
on one specific day
that one specific creature
moved out of the water
and onto dry land.
Millions of years and billions of small changes and adaptations led up to this,
but the actual step didn't happen until it did.
And even though outward appearances
might not have seemed very different for anyone other than that creature,
reality here was forever changed from that moment on.

"Among my realizations in that moment
with Grandfather [behind me]
and the dying mother and child [in front of me]
was that in truth Ahriman,
[the dispassionate observer]
had consumed nearly all of me.
Ahriman had me possessed,
and had nearly become me.
In fact, it had been part of my plan
that the' healing' of the victim-perpetrator gap
in the way I was observing,
[correction in the later page: would happen through my merely observing it, ]
so I wasn't ready for the shock of realizing
that in my denial of the Mother
I'd become the cosmic physician/torturer,
the worst perpetrator in Creation.
I had imagined myself quite differently.

In the background the fast expanding new town Shoham, in which my children lived from Dec. 2006 till July 2008 and again since June 2009 until now : January 2013

Ouch.
God, what else was in your plan before Grandfather got your ear?

"My plan to heal the suffering here, and in all Creation ["and in all Creation": omitted]
was to foster a deep and pervasive peace on Earth.
And then within that peace,
the evolution of a rich and fabulous technological paradise.
I had come to this plan
because each time I'd tried to get the Mother
to go along with me in my other plans,
the most difficult parts of her either refused,
or backed out after we got started.

"I decided
that I would have to work around her most troublesome parts
and leave them behind, if necessary.
With my back to the Mother,
I focused on helping humans and other beings
manifest a paradise on Earth.
[But I was being Ahrimanic,]
I thought I could do this without the Mother's involvement,
using only Spirit's resources of manifestation.

"I had good reason to adopt this plan,
it was very similar to the plans
used by the Creator Sons
the other six creations before this one.
I believed I was following solid precedence,
and doing the homework necessary on my part.

pp42
I was very frustrated, however,
that humans just weren't getting it about the need for peace ~
and to that end, the healing of the victim/perpetrator gap.
Victims remained victims and perpetrators kept on perpetrating.
Or so my frustration was saying
when Grandfather intervened with me on behalf of the Mother.

"I know now that my penchant for keeping my distance
and 'studying' suffering by observing it
was really Ahriman in me
trying to draw Spirit away from the Mother.
And of course it was me avoiding my responsibility
as the one who must make the first move in the healing.
Grandfather showed me that I had it wrong about karma.
He showed me the deepest level of this reality,

and I realized then
that the victim could never heal her victimhood
without first experiencing an end to the perpetration.
And stopping the perpetration was up to me.

"The way I'd left things at the Godhead,
Spirit would always 'rule',
and that meant Ahriman and Lucifer
would always get their way
during times when my attention was focused
as the distant observer.
If I didn't take the initiative to make some radical changes,
Ahriman would continue to draw me away from the Mother,
leaving her with Lucifer who would continue taking her over,
torturing her,
and trying to make her help him manifest
[the satisfaction of] his lust for death and destruction.
So it was Grandfather's 'nudge'
that got me started here in my new approach to the healing business.

An even more beautiful perspective of the old village grounds

Thank you.
God, you've talked a lot about Lucifer and Ahriman in the healing class.
Do you have an update for us on your work
of reclaiming these previously denied parts of yourself?

"As I have said, my primary focus in the healing now
is to bring back my own lost Spirit essence
which I'd projected out as Lucifer
and ignored as Ahriman.
Since Grandfather's help
I've come to understand that my healing work
is just another level of the work
Grandfather has been doing with his own essence,
and what is required of all Spirit essence.
Spirit must heal its own fragmentation,
and the fragmention is in two dimensions.

"In the vertical dimension the levels of Spirit range
from Grandfather through me to the Father of this Creation,
and then to your own spirit essence.
It is a bit of a misnomer to call these distinctions 'fragments'
because they are more acurately 'levels' of Spirit,
and they are not separate, but rather form a continuum.
The spirit of each manifestation contains within it
the Spirit of its Creator,
and the Creator Spirit contains within it
the Original Spirit that I call 'Grandfather'.

"Although Ahriman and Lucifer are true fragments of Spirit,
they also function as a continuum.
[correction in the later channeling: they also are the poles of a continuum]
The horizonal dimension of Spirit goes
from Lucifer on my extreme left
to Ahriman on my extreme right.
I, of course, am here in the center at the balance point between them.

"A metaphor that may help describe this
is that of acids and alkalines, the quality of'pH' in chemistry.
A substance that is either too acidic or too alkaline
can be harmful for that reason alone.
However, if these qualities of the substance are in balance
the substance is said to be neutral,
and therefore not harmful because of its pH.

"Both the left and right polarities of Spirit are harmful to the Mother.
Ahriman and Lucifer have been at battle with each other since the beginning,
and Spirit has been pulled off center
as they've alternated positions of dominance in their winning and losing.
This extremism on the part of Spirit is now ending ~
as I follow Grandfather's lead in reclaiming lost Spirit,
and [then as] you follow mine.

"It is too easy to see the splits and gaps in the Mother
and assume they are her fault,
or at least her problems alone to solve.
But she is not alone.
Spirit has infiltrated her in ways
that she has never had acceptance for.
As Lucifer, denied spirit has forcefully opened the Will,
and has overridden her and undermined her.
[As Ahriman, denied spirit holds light away from her healing.]
And it is denied spirit that continues to perpetrate the gaps in her."

["There is a third kind of denied light
that we've already discussed.
The asuras are the demon-like denial spirits
who hate everything and everyone,
and desire only death and destruction.
They are Grandfather's original denials
that were already in the Void
when the Mother and I first became aware of each other.

"When you are doing the spirit redemption part of the healing work,
undenying the Ahriman and Lucifer in you,
it's good to remember
that working with asuras is very different.
The spirit essence of the asuras does not belong here,
so it cannot be 'redeemed'.
The best approach to working with asuras
is to follow my advice on the True Sacrifice page.

"Whenever you are feeling hatred,
feeling like you want to kill or destroy,
or you are getting images of this -
the chances are good that an asura is involved.
The process is to imagine
offering the asura to me
and saying something like,
'Here God, take this denial spirit, this asura to its right place.'
I will then do my part to ensure
that Grandfather's denied light gets to its right place,
which is not in you - or me, for that matter.
The Will essence that had been held captive by the asura
will then be free to rejoin the rest of the Mother.

"One of my earliest mistakes was to assume
that the 'denial spirits' and 'psychopathic killers'
were my own Light gone bad.
This is how I first opened to guilt,
I was upset that I could be so mean and cruel from the beginning.
I'd thought that there was something fundamentally wrong with my Light,
and now I realize that part of my purpose here has been
to help Grandfather heal these denials
that he had unknowingly made in the Original Creation.
And releasing the judgments around all of this
is good for you to do as well.
And when the guilt is finally released,
the blame will be gone too."]

As I walked down the hill, through old terraces and loose stone fences, I viewed Highway 6 again

Okay, thank you very much.
The healing class has more information about this
and how we can begin working together to heal it.
But for now God,
what happened with the Original Mother and Grandfather?

"Grandfather's first encounter with the Mother ended in disaster on one hand.
On the other hand it spawned a perfect Creation
of deep beauty and great splendor that sustains itself,
and from which has [have] evolved many non-perfect Creations.
The disaster was the damage of Will essence in the initial explosion of creation.
[in the later channeling the link is different]

"Most of the magnetic essence
that had coalessed around the Light
that became Grandfather and the Original Creation
moved very, very quickly away from the center of Light.
As the Will left the main body of Light,
almost every part of her
that had become impregnated in the explosion
became manifest.
Her higher frequency colors manifested
as very subtle energy and thought forms,
her lower frequency colors
manifested as energy and matter in varying degrees of density.

"On the other hand,
a 'perfect' Creation was the only outcome possible for Grandfather
because all of the Will essence
that was left in his Light
was aligned with him.
A Creation with perfectly aligned Spirit and Will is a perfect Creation.
Once it reaches completion,
there is no way for it to continue evolving.

A look to the opposite side : beyond tilled fields (tilled by whom? ??? ) - Shoham again
I prefer to focus on the little spot in front:

"So Grandfather lost contact with all the parts of the Mother
that had not been in alignment with him.
As he moved closer to perfection,
he moved further away from most of the Mother,
and in the process became perfectly lonely.
He deeply missed her other parts,
the wilder and less predictable ones
that had attracted him in the first place.

"The parental part of the Original Mother and Grandfather
settled down to a long wait
for the return of the rest of the Mother
through the miracle of evolution.
He has learned much in the evolving of seven new Creations,
all with free will.
And he's always known
that the Mother cannot come to him.
He's always known he must go to her.

"The good news for us is
that this is where she is.
The parental parts of her major fragments are right here,
in this Universe and on this planet.
It's good news for me
because now I know what I need to do,
and I can stop looking elsewhere
for solutions to the suffering in Creation.

"The good news for you is
that Grandfather's Plan
calls for his reuniting with the rest of the Mother
by bringing his very spiritual [, low density, perfect Original] Creation
into deep physical [deeply physical, evolving] manifestation.
The outcome of Grandfather's reuniting with the rest of the Mother
is literally the manifestation of Heaven on Earth.

pp18
"This is the venue for the realization
of Grandfather's plan of an earthly paradise
based in true manifestation, eternal life,
and ever increasing, evolving goodness.

And it's a whole lot better
than the plan I had developed for a technological paradise [with longer life spans].
[That 'paradise' would have had to someday end in death.]
My plan was essentially a 'work around'
for the problems I'd thought I could do nothing about
because they were the Mother's.
But where my old plan left off is where Grandfather's takes over.

The path on which I had set out,
up the hill - around the ancient naked site and then around the old village and down the hill -
was frequented by weekend mountain-bikers.
It ended here, next to the walled-in outskirts of where once people had carved out a meagre living from a pretty landscape..

"Probably the best way
to understand Grandfather and his motives
is to realize
that absolutely everything in this Creation,
including all of my bumbling,
has been foreseen by him.
In fact, everything that has happened here
has been part of his plan
to reunite with the Original Mother.
[And] When it happens for Grandfather,
it happens for all Spirit,
[beginning with yours] .
When Grandfather comes to Earth to be with the Mother,
he'll find her inside of you.
He is indeed waking up inside of me as I am waking within you.
[For indeed as I am waking up inside of you, he is waking up inside of me. ]

"As above, so below.
And so it (?) with every level of reality.
As I unite with the Mother of Creation in you,
Grandfather unites with the Original Mother.
In this way you become whole,
and therefore [parental to] all of Creation.
In your New Wholeness,
with all of your Spirit aligned with all of your Will,
you may choose to manifest
whatever New Creation you Will [instead "you Will": you desire].

pp1
"One of the most important benefits of 'driving backward' is
that you can trace the causes of things
that have happened from their origins in the present ~
back down through all that's been.
With the clear vision of retrospection
and without judgment,
you can find your own bumblings ~
and make corrections now, when it matters.
Not by looking forward,
but only by looking back can you determine
where you are and how you've come to be here.

"In finding your way to any specific future destination
it's not good enough to know simply where you are going.
You must also know where you are now,
because this is [instead: this is: "here is"] where the rest of your journey begins.
Driving backward into the future keeps your spirit together with the rest of you, here in the eternal present.

[On January 6, 2013, I discovered a modification of this sentence in the newer version:
Driving backward toward the future while facing toward the past helps keep your spirit together with the rest of you, here in the eternal present.]

If you'd like to more quickly find wholeness,
I recommend the practices suggested in the Four Steps and related pages."

Next: Interview with God, Part Four
Interview with God, Part One | Interview with God, Part Two

Continuation of the pictures of my "Tomer-less" hike as background to the "Learning Experience with 'Embedded (Self-)Denial' ", Febr.7, 2009
see in Interview with God, Part Four